www.combatsi.com | www.cryingrose.com
 
Forums
Combat: Samurai Island Website :: Forums :: Support :: Suggestions
 
<< Previous thread | Next thread >>
Skill Ranking Suggestion
Go to page       >>  
Moderators: Archanox, Ayame Musashi, Esprite Xavier, fhisch, RobbyRacoon Olmstead, KatanaBlade Anubis, Haruko Fukai
Author Post
Malachi Rothschild
Thu May 01 2008, 12:05PM
Registered Member #104
Joined: Tue Oct 30 2007, 07:40PM
Posts: 106
I made a suggestion in this thread:

Link

for a type of ranking system that I think would work and not require any maintenance once it was implemented.

Each person is assigned a rank. This rank isn't based exclusively on their wins and losses. It factors in the rank of the person they're sparring. If you're sparring someone who's at a significantly higher rank thank you, that win will mean more than winning again someone at your own level. A loss to them will mean less. If you spar someone lower then your loss will mean more and your win will mean less. A downside to this might be that people who're very good are less likely to spar those who are much lower than them and I will address that later in this post.

At first everyone would have the same rank and it would take some time before it all leveled out. Once that happens the skill of each individual will be better reflected by their rank.

One of the issues that came up when this idea was presented previously is that sometimes when teaching it's helpful to let yourself die. I think the best solution is to require, in order for a match to count toward ranking, that both participants be within x ranks of each other, maybe 500 ranks depending on the size of the community. I usually only have a reason to die against people who're fairly new, not against more experienced students. Once they reach a higher rank that's not so important. This also addresses the issue I raised earlier regarding willingness to fight people who are at a much lower rank. Additionally the effect of a win could be generally higher than the effect of a loss.



[ Edited Thu May 01 2008, 12:26PM ]

A good katana fight is like a good conversation.

It's deeply engaging, reciprocal
and it flows smoothly.

Back to top
JulieAnne Rau
Thu May 01 2008, 02:48PM

Registered Member #107
Joined: Tue Oct 30 2007, 08:52PM
Posts: 77
DO you think a formal ranking system is necessary? I can see the only place for a ranking system would be within tournaments. And as mentioned before, less than 1% of the CSI players are serious and I suspect even of the 1%, there are even less tournament players.

JAR
Back to top
Malachi Rothschild
Thu May 01 2008, 03:09PM
Registered Member #104
Joined: Tue Oct 30 2007, 07:40PM
Posts: 106
I don't think anything is necessary. It's not necessary that the system is balanced however desirable that might be. This isn't about what's necessary. It's about how the system might be improved.

I do think this type of ranking system would add more color to the system and could attract more people to it. It would make running tournaments much easier and might open the door to other possibilities down the line. Improving the experience for serious users of the system will likely improve retention rates. Avoiding something that helps the serious users because it doesn't add anything for casual users is imo not the right approach. I think the better approach is to get more of those casual users to make the switch.

Currently in Tsushima there are weekly tournaments where prize money is involved. Golgotha is planning on hosting some tourneys in their sim and The Final Stand's planning for a second clan-based 3v3. The tournaments mean that people who train at c:si have the opportunity to win money. Money isn't a big motivation for me to practice something but I've seen the effect it has on other people. By improving the quality of the tournaments (e.g. by creating a built-in ranking system) there will be more opportunities for users of the system to earn a financial reward which would hopefully be a boon to retention. At the same time having that type of a placement system means even people newer to the system have a better chance to earn a little back.



A good katana fight is like a good conversation.

It's deeply engaging, reciprocal
and it flows smoothly.

Back to top
JulieAnne Rau
Fri May 02 2008, 08:19AM

Registered Member #107
Joined: Tue Oct 30 2007, 08:52PM
Posts: 77
Mal, I understand what your saying but I never liked how you pick out one word in any statement and then focus on it. In this case, its "necessary", give me a break will ya. No wonder there are not a lot of people adding to the forums. No one likes to get jumped all over about one word. yessshhh....it gives me the impression you haven't actually read what I wrote. I know you'll want to disagree and justify that, because that is who you are, but its just my opinion.

Don't get me wrong here but I think there are more important issues than improving the ranking system is all I'm saying. Yes, there is value in tournaments (less than 1% of 1% do tournaments) and therefore any mass amount of time put into designing it, monitoring it, changing it when it fails will not be beneficial to everyone.

Improve retention rates? I have to disagree that pigeon holing someone will improve retention rates. I suspect its the opposite. Again, just my opinion unless you have some facts that ranking people hold interest. I know that during marital arts tournaments, for younger kids, we don't even keep score, its based on time.

I'm not asking anyone to avoid the placement of such a system, only that it should be at the bottom of the ta-do-list.

that's my opinion, JAR

[ Edited Fri May 02 2008, 09:00AM ]
Back to top
Malachi Rothschild
Fri May 02 2008, 09:10AM
Registered Member #104
Joined: Tue Oct 30 2007, 07:40PM
Posts: 106
Julie,

This may surprise you but last night I was having a conversation with someone and we both feel that the majority of your posts are you playing the devil's advocate to things that people say and that sets a more negative tone to the forum. No one likes to get jumped all over whenever they make a suggestion. yeshhhh... It gives me the impression you haven't actually read what I wrote. I know you'll want to disagree and justify that, because that is who you are, but it's just my opinion.

If you must know, I have asperger's. I do tend to focus on details, not only in this situation. If you use imprecise language and what you've said doesn't make sense to me or doesn't seem accurate then it's very likely I will call you on it. It means I have read what you wrote and I've read it very closely. And if I understand what you're saying, your feeling is, because I'm explaining my actions and pointing out something that I would have witheld (to be quite specific I told someone last night not to respond very vocally in this thread to your behavior on the forums because I didn't think it would be productive) that I'm justifying myself. As you say, that's just your opinion.


wrote ...
Yes, there is value in tournaments (less than 1% of 1% do tournaments) and therefore any mass amount of time put into designing it, monitoring it, changing it when it fails will not be beneficial to everyone.


This passage gives me the impression that you didn't really read what I wrote. I never said that it would be beneficial for everyone in my post.

wrote ...
Improve retention rates? I have to disagree that pigeon holing someone will improve retention rates. I suspect its the opposite. Again, just my opinion unless you have some facts that ranking people hold interest.


Again I'm getting the impression that you didn't read what I said closely. I was focusing on the value of monetary reward as a motivator for some people and the amount that tournaments have developed lately and continue to develop. If people are ranked then they can be placed among other people closer to their skill level. This gives them a better chance of earning money.

wrote ...
I know that during marital arts tournaments, for younger kids, we don't even keep score, its based on time.


And that's valid. I think it would make sense to require a minimum number of spars before a rank is assigned. You can't really assign a rank until you have a decent amount of data.

wrote ...
I'm not asking anyone to avoid the placement of such a system, only that it should be at the bottom of the ta-do-list.


I feel it should be pretty high up on the to-do list because of how prevalent tournaments are becoming and the direction that is taking the community but I'd really like to hear some other opinions on ranking.

-- Mal

Edit: As one additional piece of information, the Samurai Tournaments group for the weekly tourneys in Tsushima, which is relatively new, has over 200 members including 3 of the devs.

[ Edited Fri May 02 2008, 09:30AM ]

A good katana fight is like a good conversation.

It's deeply engaging, reciprocal
and it flows smoothly.

Back to top
JulieAnne Rau
Fri May 02 2008, 10:11AM

Registered Member #107
Joined: Tue Oct 30 2007, 08:52PM
Posts: 77
You are absolutely right, I appologize.
Back to top
Atrus Westland
Fri May 02 2008, 10:27AM

Registered Member #633
Joined: Fri Dec 21 2007, 03:21PM
Posts: 57
Personally I feel that based on the direction and feel that the C:SI community has been taking in recent months it would be a smart idea to implement something like this. The system of ranking that Malachi mentioned wasn’t just any ‘ole ranking system, which is nice. It seems to have the appropriate checks and balances in place, making it useful and fun for both competitive and non competitive users. I feel that since the C:SI community has taken to the way of competitiveness that a ranking system like this would be just what the doctor ordered if you will. Many of the motivations that Malachi mentioned I agree with whole heartedly.

Weather it should be at the top of this emphasis To-Do list, is another topic of debate in my personally opinion. The priority and necessity of any one feature or idea is very much up to the four developers and owners of C:SI. And even in the case that they find this suggestion to be the next best thing since sliced bread (which I highly doubt) I doubt we will see it being worked on tomorrow or even next week. I’m fairly certain many of us that frequent the forums, and that consider ourselves hardcore members of C:SI know that they, the devs are constantly working on and brainstorming on ways to better the system. So with that in mind perhaps it would be better to consider the topic at hand here, which is the idea or suggestion of a ranking or more formal ranking system.

Personally I would like to see some diagrams to help me visualize the ideas the Malachi has presented here. In my personal experience I find it much easier to understand, and visualize ideas and suggestions like these when I have something to look at. I’m sure many others who see this topic would benefit in the same way I would.

Aside from that I would just like mention again that I think this idea is would be very useful to the community and well received by a majority of users. Not just those whom participate in tournaments but even the casual member of C:SI who only have 100 spars or less.


[ Edited Fri May 02 2008, 10:35AM ]
Back to top
Esprite Xavier
Fri May 02 2008, 01:51PM

Registered Member #12
Joined: Thu Aug 16 2007, 07:17PM
Posts: 35
A more advanced skill ranking system is something we've been working on in the background on and off for awhile now. Alot of the thing mentioned originally in this post are things we have discussed in the past as possibilities. Though not exactly what Malachi was talking about. Though I'm glad people see the necessity of a more in depth stats system just as much as we do.
Sorry I can't give a time table or a status on how far along this all is, but we are working on it.
Back to top
Malachi Rothschild
Fri May 02 2008, 04:04PM
Registered Member #104
Joined: Tue Oct 30 2007, 07:40PM
Posts: 106
Esprite,

Thanks for the update.

-- Mal

A good katana fight is like a good conversation.

It's deeply engaging, reciprocal
and it flows smoothly.

Back to top
Shindo Otsuka
Sat May 03 2008, 12:23AM
Registered Member #823
Joined: Sun Jan 27 2008, 07:04PM
Posts: 132
All I have to say is this:


"Huh?!"

Let's have a play date with our swords! >:D

Link
Back to top
Go to page       >>   

Jump:     Back to top

Syndicate this thread: rss 0.92 Syndicate this thread: rss 2.0 Syndicate this thread: RDF
Powered by e107 Forum System

 

 

 
Copyright 2008 Combat: Samurai Island, All Rights Reserverd